TRANSCRIPT – ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING

Angie Bell MP
Shadow Minister for Early Childhood Education
Shadow Minister for Youth
Federal Member for Moncrieff

TRANSCRIPT

ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING

 

10 September 2024

 

Subjects: Social media ban, aged care reforms, AI and deepfakes

 

E&OE…………………………………………………………………………………………………

 

GREG JENNETT:

Social media bans on teenagers is hard to walk passed as a dominant discussion point of the day. So let’s get into that now, joining us right here in the studio on our political panel we have government frontbencher and Member for Edern Monaro, Kristy McBain. Welcome back Kristy. And Liberal frontbencher and Member for Moncrieff, Angie Bell, welcome to you too Angie.

So this ban that has been foreshadowed by the Government, we will go to you first Kristy, but no age as yet, nor do we know when the age assurance trials will be completed by. How can we be certain this isn’t legislating on the fly?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

It’s clearly not legislating on the fly. What we’re doing is continuing the discussion that’s happening in our communities already. It’s happening in every household across the country, even in my own I don’t think that there is a divergence of opinion amongst politicians in this building, that more needs to be done in the social media space and regulating that space for the mental health, for the safety and wellbeing of our kids, and particularly for the social cohesion of our communities. There is too much at stake to make sure that we get along and get some legislation that both parties, both major parties, will agree to because, I think the same page in wanting to regulate this space.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Do you have a personal preference, since no age limit is locked in yet, I think you both free to express one. Where do you think it would be appropriate?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

I think obviously between 14 and 16 is that that age group where, you know, kids need to be a little bit freer to be able to contact their friends for social reasons, but we don’t want to see kids under 14 burying themselves in their bedroom, being potentially the target of online bullying or scams, or worse, being groomed. So it is really important that whatever legislation comes forward, that we work constructively together as a parliament and get the right measures in place, because our kids futures are at stake.

 

GREG JENNETT:

All right, Angie Bell, lay out your position on this, even as far as the specific ages, if you’ve given some thought.

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Absolutely Greg, we have given some thought to this. And back in June, I think last time also, we were on the panel we discussed this, where I said that Peter Dutton has laid out our position on this, and we have promised that the age would be 16, and that we would implement that in the first 100 days of coming to government. I think that’s reasonable.

I don’t know what’s stopping the government from beginning their trial, their age verification trial, it’s very important that they start with that trial, which they haven’t yet. They’ve just put it out to tender. So not sure why the government is so slow on this sort of half-baked announcement without doing any work behind it.

Our position has been very clear. Peter Dutton has been very clear on how we will do that in government.

 

GREG JENNETT:

What was the position that led the Coalition to 16? Was that advised by experts? Obviously, you don’t have the resources of government to be running trials. But what’s magical about 16?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

I think that’s the age where you can get a driver’s license, for example. I think it’s an age where you are a young adult, below that age, you are simply a child. I think it’s beholden upon all of us to protect our youngest Australians.

As the Shadow Minister for Youth, I have a very big stake in that. I think it’s important, young people are telling me across the nation that they want to see some rules in place as well. They’re also concerned about their fellow young people, and they’re telling me that they want some guardrails as well. And you know, when they were younger, they wished that there were some more rules in place. They want the social media giants to be adhering to Australian laws, and I think it’s beholden upon all of us to do that. Get on with it.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Yeah, I was gonna say not many, but in fact, none of the people in the age ranges that we’re talking about here, Kristy, actually get a vote under Australian law. Would you expect a backlash from them, though? I mean, not in an electoral sense, but they are going to be resistant, aren’t they, teenagers, to giving up this thing that’s been a constant or a mainstay in their life for well, in many cases, three or four years by that age.

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

They obviously don’t get a vote, but they’re also free thinking individuals as well, and we raise them to be like that. So you know, it’s great that they have opinions. What we have done, and the Minister for Youth has done, Anne Aly, through our youth taskforce, has actually had them give their opinions and have their voices heard by the Minister for Communications leading into the age trial verification tender that is going out, we’ve sifted through a range of technologies that are out there to make sure that we are tendering for the right thing. There are a range of ways that we can do that, whether that’s bans, whether that’s legislation, whether that’s working with the social media companies, there are a range of ways we can tackle this. And I think that most important thing is that, as I said, the Parliament comes together on legislation that will make a difference for our kids’ lives, because this will be a generational impact. We’ve seen through Covid, you know, young people do it really tough. We are seeing less young people graduate high school at this point in time before Covid. It’s really important we get this legislation right, because it is the well being of our communities that is at stake here.

 

GREG JENNETT:

By government stepping in in this way Angie, it’s a serious intervention that, let’s face it hasn’t really been tried anywhere in the world so far. So that’s important. But what about parents and their responsibilities? Do you think they failed to meet them?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

I think it has been put in place in other countries around the world. The United States has put it in place.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Florida, I think.

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Yeah. I think it’s important that we protect our children, and I think parents are really looking for guardrails on how to do that, and social media companies need to adhere to Australian law. The sooner there’s a law in place, the better off our young children will be.

I do agree with the Shadow Minister, sorry the Minister for Youth, in terms of letting children be children. Children should be able to enjoy their childhood without fear, without being bullied online, on social media platforms, and so I would say to the government, get on with it.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Do you think there is some risk of a libertarian pushback against, a similar question to that, which I put to Kristy, it’s quite a change that would be inflicted on families here. Some won’t take it lightly, will they?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Well, I’m sure there’ll be some young people that will be upset about this decision, but what we need to do is take care of our youngest Australians. We need to protect them from an environment online that is escalating every day, and it’s up to our government to put in place laws that show that we’re doing that, to give those parents those guardrails, to give them the information that they need to keep their children safe.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Okay, why don’t we move to the other end, or the opposite end of the age spectrum now and talk about aged care. Critically important for millions of Australian families. Of course, Kristy, we learned from the Coalition today that they only got the 500 page Bill a week ago, so it looks like they want to take their time to work through that. Are we any closer to an agreement on this?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

Well, the Minister for Health and Aged Care and the Minister for Aged Care and Sport have been working with the Shadow Ministers for months now, and it is really important that we when we have big reforms, that are huge in our country, not only huge because of the demographics, but huge in terms of what it means to the federal budget that there is, I guess, a meeting of minds and a collaboration between the two parties. It is really important that any reforms in the aged care space are done in accordance with views where we can get along and come to an agreement. The Morrison Government implemented the Royal Commission after some pushing, but we got there. It is really important now that as a Parliament, we respond to that, and we’ve put in place a range of measures since we came to government to address the Royal Commission recommendations, but the aged care reform is still the big one that is outstanding, and we do need to come together, because it needs to be reform that stands the test of time.

 

GREG JENNETT:

It really does go to the fundamentals of the system and who pays what. So what’s the hold up Angie?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

We have extended the olive branch of bipartisanship on this. We do want to see a world class aged care system in our nation. As you rightly pointed out, Greg, it’s 500 pages, the Shadow Minister is working through that to make sure that the details in that legislation are where they should be. We’re just sort of finalising that. It takes time. We’re not stopping the government bringing that to the House. We’re simply working through the detail as good Oppositions do.

 

GREG JENNETT:

No particular sticking points that you’re aware of. I think I’ve heard some on your side talking about a union representation in the governance of particularly regional homes in your case, Kristy, is that an overriding concern?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Well, there are many details in 500 pages that we need to work through, and that’s what we’re doing.

 

GREG JENNETT:

All right. Is that a feature of it, that there might be some mandated union representation on the boards of regional nursing homes in particular?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

Well, the detail is obviously with the Ministers and the Shadow Ministers at this point in time. I think speculation on what’s in that bill is pointless. What I do know, though, across the country is, as we have an aging population, people want to know that the aged care system and the aged care sector is going to be sorted out. We need a sustainable system going forward, and we need to make sure that we are caring for our older Australians and some very vulnerable older Australians. My mum worked in aged care for the last 15 years of her career. She still says it was the best job she ever had, and even though she was paid pretty dismally when she was there, she did it because she had a passion to care for people. That’s what we want to see in our aged care sector. That’s what we’re getting now, is people coming back to the sector after the 15 per cent wage increase that we implemented, and we want to see a sector go forward that is world leading, that provides the best care to our communities.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Well, there must be an element of goodwill, because I will observe there haven’t been an awful lot of leaks about what is being discussed between government and Coalition on aged care. We’ll keep watching brief on that.

Now, before we wrap up today, why don’t we move to the issue of deep fakes in politics? And I’m sure you’re both aware Angie and Kristy, a former political leader from South Australia, David Spiers of the Liberal Party, is disputing what he calls a deep fake video of him appearing to snort a white powder. Now if he’s right, this would really underscore the vulnerability of any elected representative you know, reflecting adversary on both of you, but potentially both of you, that people could get away with making fake videos of this nature. Would that be concerning?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Absolutely that would be concerning. That is a case, I won’t be commenting on that particular case for David Spiers. It’s a matter for him, of course, and the South Australian Liberals, but I will comment on being concerned about what that means for certainly my state upcoming election in Queensland, but also the federal election that Australians will be facing, and what that means for Kirsty and I, I mean, sorry, Kristy, apologies, Kristy and I in terms of how people can portray you through AI. I think that it’s important that we ready ourselves for that, because that is not a pretty scenario for any of us.

 

GREG JENNETT:

It’s not but there are people around this current Parliament federally saying we should be doing something about that, perhaps in electoral law, and possibly before the next election. Do you see a case for that?

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Well, certainly, I think there should be laws around AI, and the government should be looking at that.

 

GREG JENNETT:

Now, again, I stress there’s considerable uncertainty around the facts of what’s occurred here, and we are talking sort of in the abstract here, Kristy McBain, but on that point about AI generated imagery that can be used for political ends, would this be a demonstration of that? An argument for the need to regulate in this area?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

So we’ve introduced some legislation into the house to deal with explicit deep fakes, in particular, because far too many people are having their images be used in videos which are not them, and we should look at how we can regulate that out of our system that has been introduced. We’ve quadrupled the fund into the eSafety Commissioner, because we know people are being attacked, bullied online, and It’s really important that we do have the eSafety Commissioner there, not only for information and education purposes, but also from a regulatory sense as well. That’s very important. And there is some work happening within the AI space with the Minister for Industry around codes of conduct for those companies putting out AI software…interrupted

 

GREG JENNETT:

But nothing for this Parliament, it doesn’t look like it?

 

KRISTY MCBAIN MP:

… but it is going to be important I think going forward, particularly as we see the nature of political debate become more and more personal, that we really have a look at how we can make sure that we’re protecting people, particularly people who put their hand up to run for parliament, whether that’s state or federally or for local councils, because, you know, people do so with a desire to serve a community. You know, 99 per cent of people that put their hand up for these jobs want to do so because they want to see better outcomes for their communities, regardless of which political party you represent. And I think it’s really important that we look at how we can make that online safe, online space, safer for everyone.

 

GREG JENNETT:

It would corrosively undermine confidence in politics if that were true. But equally, I will observe, as we wrap up today, that if the David Spiers explanation were not true, then that would be harmful as well to the reputation of politicians. But we won’t cast judgment on what the facts might be in this case, what we will do is wrap it up there. Kristy McBain, Angie Bell, great to have you with us.

 

ANGIE BELL MP:

Thank you.

 

[ENDS]