Transcript – Paul Murray Live, Sky News

Angie Bell MP

Shadow Minister for the Environment

Shadow Minister for Youth

Federal Member for Moncrieff

TRANSCRIPT

Paul Murray Live, Sky News

12 June 2025

Subjects: Australia-US relations, Jack’s Law, Education, Engaging with young voters

E&OE…………………………………………………………………………………………………

PAUL MURRAY:

We’re two very big brained and beautiful people, none other than the wonderful Joe Hildebrand, here in The Man Cave.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Good evening sir, how are you?

PAUL MURRAY:

Excellent. Lovely to see you. And Angie Bell is a member of the Shadow Ministry in the federal opposition, and she lives in and around God’s country, otherwise known as the Gold Coast. How are you Angie, nice to see you mate.

ANGIE BELL:

Fantastic, Paul, thanks for having me.

PAUL MURRAY:

So I want to not get into the will he or won’t they, meeting in and around Donald Trump and Anthony Albanese. Again, while I am no fan of Albo, I want the best possible relationship between the United States and Australia. I hope there is an opportunity for a meeting. I hope that everyone can charm the pants off each other, and things start to move in the right direction. But I wanted to talk a little bit about where I was at the start of the show, which is, how the hell did we get here, when 70% of the country believed that the military threat to Australia would be China, but 30% of Australians say we should have closer ties with China, while a very significant number of people say we need to pull back from the United States, principally because of the personality of their President. I say for the 400th time, I’m talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people. I’m talking about the government in Beijing, not the diaspora that might be in Australia. But Joe, it’s not a choice of a less of two evils. And I understand the diplomacy the Prime Minister needs to play. But about these poll results, we’ve got to be on the side of the Americans.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Absolutely, we do. Look, America is our oldest ally. America is the reason why Japan didn’t invade. I don’t want to get into debates about the Brisbane line.

PAUL MURRAY:

I was going to say, don’t talk about the Queensland, don’t talk about the Queensland line.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

But point being, we need America. Without the USA, we basically don’t exist in the Asia Pacific. We need to be so intertwined with them that effectively, any attack on us is an attack on them. That is why we have their troops stationed in Darwin. That is why we let them monitor the solar system in Pine Gap and that’s why we went to war with them in Vietnam when Britain didn’t go to war with them in Vietnam. That’s why we went to war with them in Iraq when France, their oldest ally, didn’t go to war with them in Iraq. So I think it’s pretty poor form for the Americans to now try to use that alliance as a political football. And I don’t like what Donald Trump is doing at all. However, Aukus is going to last for decades. Donald Trump is going to last for three and a bit years, we need to think much, much more long term and strategically than about people saying, “Oh, I don’t really like Donald Trump, so maybe we should just hang out with China”. Xi Jinping, I promise you, is going to be around for a lot longer than Donald Trump. And even when he does go, he’ll probably be replaced with someone just as bad.

PAUL MURRAY:

Angie, you know, the tripwire that has now been created around, in part, some of this conversation politically, but let’s just deal with the reality here, that we always keep being told that regardless of whether we like a Prime Minister in this country or dislike a President in the United States, the relationship must be more important than the people involved in it. That said, it does feel like, you know, there’s political advantage to both of them to kind of treat each other poorly at the moment, and I think that is to the collective dissatisfaction of the Western world, and our little pocket of it. We need a close relationship, not red lines and demands between these two leaders.

ANGIE BELL:

Well, I think we all agree on these points, Paul and Joe, great to be on the show with you. It’s so important our strategic partnership with the United States. And what this story in the newspaper did outline is that the majority of Australians do believe that our relationship with the United States is way more important than one Prime Minister and one President in history. And our relationship does go way back – we have gone to war with the United States of America, we have had each other’s backs for a long time, and now we do have the Aukus agreement in place that the United States is looking at now reviewing. I would say that this is never more important than ever in our history, that the Prime Minister does secure a meeting with the President at the G7. this is a matter of utmost importance for our relationship to continue. But most importantly, we do have that close relationship with the United States and Australians understand, and Americans understand, that it’s bigger than two men or maybe one day women in the White House and here in Canberra.

PAUL MURRAY:

Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Now let’s talk about a situation involving Queensland and what is called Jack’s Law. And this is greater abilities for the police, to be able to search people for knives, to do it without warrant, to do it in a street, to be able to do it, perhaps even in a family home. Now here, in part, is the explanation for it from Queensland

[AUDIO]

Dan’s a good man and a good Minister. To me, it seems like a no brainer. I remember, our experience when we were in Toowoomba, Angie, doing a show, is that you were asked by police if they could perform the wand test on you. The laws now changed that, to make it essentially one where it can be demanded of you. I think this is pretty simple. If you’ve never carried a knife, then in the same way, when you get pulled over for drink driving tests, you know you’re not going to fail. So what’s the problem here?

ANGIE BELL:

Paul, I know the Beazleys, I’ve met them quite a few times, and it’s their advocacy really, that has got the Crisafulli Government to where it is with these knife laws. I think they are right and they are proper, and I congratulate Dave Crisafulli and the LNP here in Queensland for implementing them. It’s time that victims’ rights were put ahead of perpetrators’ rights. And these are good laws, and they’re necessary laws, and it’s a big problem across Queensland, and I’m sure other states as well. I know New South Wales has also put their laws in place. So this is about time, it’s right and well done to Queensland Government.

PAUL MURRAY:

Yeah, it’s one of these things, and you know, look the libertarian in me always, you know these little moments where reality clashes against what seems to be a good idea to say at a barbecue. But you know how you often will hear sort of say the Greens turn around and say “Oh, sniffer dogs at drug parties are terrible because they might find people with drugs and makes people anxious who are taking drugs”. Well, I’m sorry, if you’ve got a knife and there is this, there is increasingly this being used as the weapon of choice, we know the machete situation in Victoria, if this helps the police stop a single person being hurt, then I can’t see where it’s going to be used. The claim is, oh, it’s just going to be used to annoy people that they want to annoy?

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Well, I remember when people who broke the law were tough, they didn’t fall back on their civil liberties and say [inaudible]. If you’re going to be a drug dealer, at least, you know, rock up to that music festival and own it.

PAUL MURRAY:

Roll the dice. Roll the dice, son.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Look, I think they…

PAUL MURRAY

Send your complaints to somewhere else.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

But I think it’s a no brainer. New South Wales police, I think have asked, already I believe received or certainly being reviewed, similar laws. It’s in stark contrast, I think, to the Victorian Government’s approach, where they actually blame the implement itself, rather than the person who’s carrying it. It’s like, arrest the machetes at the source. Stop the machete before it attacks again. Whereas you’ve got in Queensland, people say, well no, if someone’s actually carrying a blade on a street, and of course, these knives would still be easily accessible in Victoria and elsewhere, if we’re suspicious of someone, of course you have to be able to…there is nothing progressive, there is nothing left wing, and it always blows my mind that that some lefties seem to think so, about allowing crime and criminals to run rampant on the street. They always affect the most vulnerable and most disadvantaged communities. It is always the most vulnerable and disadvantaged people, the people who the left should be defending, who are the most likely to be victims of this kind of violent crime. So for the love of God, defend them and protect them instead of the perpetrator.

PAUL MURRAY:

In the next segment, we’re gonna have a chat about the future of the Liberal Party, particularly reaching out to younger voters. But Angie, we see today that at a school summit, which I think was being held by The Age, the Catholic schools have come forward to say they want to go back to basics, to reintroduce discipline into the classroom. The OECD has already shown we have some of the most disruptive classrooms in the Western world, but we also know we’ve spent hundreds of billions of dollars supposedly trying to improve our education system, but the results keep going backwards. To the extent where a third of primary school kids, a third of high school kids, the basics they’re not meeting when it comes to those NAPLAN tests. Yet we just went through a federal election where no one was talking about this, that the future of the country, and a third of it that is currently in school, is not meeting the basics. Why can’t we have a multiple week long, results focused debate around education in this country, and it just sort of pops up, we all agree that something should change, and then nothing does.

ANGIE BELL:

Well I think a return to explicit instruction is really important and is part of the answer. As you say, we’ve been pouring billions and billions of dollars into education, and NAPLAN results are going down the toilet. So I think it is important. Remember back, Paul, I’m not sure exactly of your age, but I remember when I was in high school, it was certainly all about learning by rote….

PAUL MURRAY:

You will never offend me by guessing!

ANGIE BELL:

We know what our 12 times tables are….

PAUL MURRAY:

And it was, it was rote learning, it was times tables. It was foundation writing was about as fancy as it got.

ANGIE BELL:

Absolutely. And you remember those times tables most of the time, even as you get older. So I think explicit instruction really is important. It’s a way that students can remember what they’ve learned, rather than this sort of learning by experimenting with an idea and then perhaps coming up with what the solution is, or perhaps not. So I think going back to explicit instruction in maths, in arithmetic, in writing, in those areas, reading as well, it’s so very important that we just get back to basics. The other thing that you mentioned…

JOE HILDEBRAND:

I was going to say, Angie, the good news is that’s actually happening. And the Education Minister, Jason Clare is all in on this. All in on…

PAUL MURRAY:

So when do we when do we see something happen? He’s been around for three years. All the states are Labor, get it done by Tuesday!

JOE HILDEBRAND:

But to change the way you teach, you actually have to change the way you teach teachers. So you have to put all that in the curriculum, not of the classroom, but of the actual teaching degree, so that teachers are graduating learning how to use these new, which are actually old….

PAUL MURRAY:

So when do we see something at the end, 5, 10 years?

JOE HILDEBRAND:

It will take a few years, but it is already happening. And also teachers in the classroom already in the best, the highest performing schools, public schools included, they are already doing exactly this sort of stuff, and that’s why they’re performing well.

PAUL MURRAY:

Representing the Prime Minister, the Minister for [inaudible]. All right, quick break, back with more, plenty to talk about, including winners and losers of the week.

Thank you so much. In conversation with the wonderful Joe Hildebrand and Angie Bell who’s a Shadow Minister in Sussan Ley’s shadow cabinet. Now, Angie, we’ve spoken on the show before, and I really am looking forward to more conversations with your good self and a few other newer faces as part of the front line of what the Coalition is trying to do. Because the reality is, if they keep doing the same things, they’re going to get the same results. And we know, and we had the conversation with Nick Cater earlier in the week about Gen Z and about how their disquiet is not something to eye roll at. It’s to actually try to come up with policy solutions for, and for those of us that are sitting at around our age in Gen X, it’s the opportunity for us to not just assume that all knowledge is known of previous generations and previous ways of doing it. So what’s your thought about how the other side of politics can get back into, at the very least, a choice for younger voters?

ANGIE BELL:

I think you’re right. It is important that we connect with younger voters. Over the last couple of weeks, I’ve had at least four round tables with young people. I am the Shadow Minister for Youth, and was also in the last parliament, and I’ve delivered three Gold Coast Youth Impact Summits actually, and the third one was just last Friday. And so I feel like I’m very much in touch with young people on the Gold Coast and listening to their concerns. Just today, I had a round table with Miami High School here on the Gold Coast where young people outlined that they’re concerned about housing and asked about solutions around housing and moving forward. So I think that we do need to interpret our values to young people, or they need to interpret our values in a new way, in a contemporary way, and we need to be relevant to their needs, and we need to listen very closely to young people. They have a lot to give. They have a lot to contribute to our society.

And there are some fantastic young people around the country that I’ve come into contact with over the last few years in the portfolio. I think the other thing Paul that’s really important to highlight is that Sussan Ley has elevated youth into cabinet, along with the environment portfolio with myself, and so young people will have a loud voice in the shadow cabinet. And I think that’s really important moving forward. I think also my colleagues agree with that, that we need to reconnect with young people, and we need to outline what our values are. We also need to explain to them, in easy speak, how bad some of Labor’s policies are and some of the Greens policies are, as well. But particularly Labor’s super tax and how that will impact young people, because a 20 year old today who is on an average wage, by the time they’re 60, they will be impacted by this terrible super tax that Labor has come up with. That will impact all young people across the country. It’s up to us to really explain that to them.

PAUL MURRAY:

Yeah, because Joe, again, part of what Angie’s talking about, part of what Nick was writing about, which is, yeah, there is great generational difference between our parents, grandparents, the Howard years, where we sit now and where the future may be. And philosophically like, I don’t want a country that is dependent on government, right? I don’t want that triangle of dependency where either you work for government, handout from government, or the biggest client is government, and we’re slowly managing decline. Now obviously it’s not just about, you know, how you present yourself. It’s about the ideas. It’s about actually engaging. And I think you know at the moment, yes, youth is often to the left, but in the same way that the right doesn’t own strength, the left doesn’t own compassion, and the assumption that only the left can communicate with people under the age of 40, not true.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I would firstly like to award Angie the Sir Humphrey Appleby medal for courage, for trying to get young people excited about superannuation, because I cannot even get myself excited, and I’m almost old enough to receive it. But yeah, look, it is a really, it is a really difficult one. I think of two people when I think about this issue. I think of John Howard, and I think of Donald Trump. John Howard, I’m old enough to remember people were talking about this incredible shift of young voters to the Coalition in the sort of heyday of John Howard’s government. And it wasn’t because they thought he was cool, or because they thought he was edgy or funky, whatever. They just thought he was kind of like a nice, kindly granddad who might be a bit old fashioned about things, but ultimately would take care of them, and maybe with a bit of tough love, but, you know, blah, blah. But again, that wasn’t seeing the Coalition get a majority of young voters by a long shot. That was young voters, voting you know, instead of 90-10 for Labor and the Greens, maybe 80-20, or 70…

PAUL MURRAY:

And by shaving it up a little bit, that’s exactly what Trump did.

JOE HILDEBRAND:

That’s exactly right. With Trump, you actually have something else, interestingly, where the Democrats look so just not nauseating in every possible way, but so out of touch, so elitist, so kind of forbidding and tutting in their kind of their language and their attitudes and trying to regulate language and all the ridiculous woke stuff and the obsession with identity politics that Trump actually did look cool. He did look like the cool guy, especially for younger and working class men. He got half of Hispanic men. He got a third of black men, and we all know that white working class men just ran to him and droves, and that was driven by young people.

PAUL MURRAY:

Which, again, doesn’t mean any of us saying, be more Trumpy, it’s just about the concept of [inaudible]

JOE HILDEBRAND:

Well that’s right and don’t chase young votes at the expense of alienating your base. Young people grow up.

PAUL MURRAY:

Well, Angie, thank you so much. We’ll see you again next week, along with the wonderful Joe as well. Thank you very much.

ENDS.